KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: fighting on.
CROWD:
USA. USA.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Donald Trump wins the New Hampshire primary, moving him closer to a rematch with President Joe Biden. But Nikki Haley vows to stay in the race, insisting she’s more electable in November.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
This race is far from over.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Nikki Haley, have you ever heard of her? I didn't know she was still campaigning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will the primary battle continue, or has the general election already begun?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
You know what she doesn't have? She doesn't have MAGA.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
Bring it Donald, show me what you got.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley joins me exclusively this morning. Plus: blame game. A bipartisan border deal could be in jeopardy because former President Trump opposes it.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
He doesn’t want us to solve the border problem because he wants to blame Biden for it.
SEN. TED CRUZ:
The only purpose of taking this up is giving Democrats political cover to say, “Gosh, we want to secure the border.”
SEN. THOM TILLIS:
When you have an opportunity to make this country safe, you take it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will election year politics kill the deal that would unlock aid to Ukraine and Israel? I'll speak to Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York. And $83.3 million. Donald Trump is ordered to pay millions in damages for defaming writer E. Jean Carroll. The decision comes one year after another jury found Trump liable for sexually assaulting her and later defaming her.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The whole thing is a scam.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Washington Managing Editor Carol Lee, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher and Republican strategist Matt Gorman. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. Urgent talks are underway in the Middle East as American-led negotiators close in on a deal in which Israel would suspend its war in Gaza for about two months, in exchange for the release of more than 100 hostages. That’s according to the New York Times. CIA Director Bill Burns is in Paris today meeting with Israeli, Egyptian and Qatari officials. It comes as NBC News is reporting exclusively the Biden administration is discussing using weapons and ammunition sales to Israel as leverage to persuade the Israeli government to scale back its military assault on Gaza. Officials tell NBC News the U.S. is considering slowing or pausing the delivery of weapons including artillery and precision-guided munitions to pressure the Israelis to do more to protect Palestinian civilians. All of it, the backdrop of a two-front campaign, with a defiant Nikki Haley vowing to stay in the race for the Republican nomination, despite losses in Iowa and New Hampshire. The next big battleground: Haley's home state of South Carolina, where overnight she sharpened her attacks against former President Donald Trump.
[START TAPE]
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Donald Trump was totally unhinged – unhinged. He was a bit sensitive. And I think that, – and I think his feelings were hurt but he threw a temper tantrum out on stage, seriously, threw a total temper tantrum and was talking about revenge.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now South Carolina is still 27 days away, but Haley's refusal to drop out may be getting under the former president's skin. He threatened this week, "Anybody that makes a 'contribution' to Haley,” who he calls birdbrain, “from this moment forth, will be permanently barred from the MAGA camp."
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I'll tell you what, I feel sharper now than I did 20 years ago. Nikki Haley, have you ever heard of her? I didn't know she was still campaigning. She’s still campaigning? She was just endorsed by Liz Cheney. Can you believe it?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Adding to the political drama, President Biden has insisted the general election has already begun. It comes as he and lawmakers on Capitol Hill are grappling with a border deal that seems to be on life support. Last night in South Carolina, President Biden vowed again to shut down the border to secure emergency funding for Ukraine, as former President Trump promised to stand in the way of any deal.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
If that bill were the law today, I'd shut down the border right now and fix it quickly. A bipartisan bill would be good for America and help fix our broken immigration system and allow speedy access for those who deserve to be here. And Congress needs to get it done.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I'd rather have no bill than a bad bill, a bad bill you can't have and that's what was happening in the House.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Ambassador Nikki Haley. Ambassador Haley, welcome back to Meet the Press.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Thanks so much, Kristen, for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we really appreciate your being here. As you know, former President Donald Trump has called on you to get out of this race. The RNC says it's time for Republicans to unify around Mr. Trump. What is your response to this apparent pressure campaign against you?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Look, I mean, he can't bully his way through the nomination. I think that, you know, it's not surprising that he is surrounded by the political elite. But let's keep in mind the political elite has gotten nothing done for us in stopping the wasteful spending, has gotten nothing done to secure the border, has gotten nothing done to keep us more safe as we see wars around the world. And so, look, that's exactly what we don't want. I mean, the reason the political elite are upset and the members of Congress are upset is because I've pushed for term limits. I've pushed for mental competency tests. I've said if they don't get a budget out on time, they shouldn't get paid. So, look, I have fought this political class my entire life, and it’s – it’s – I'd much rather be fighting for the people than fighting for the elected officials in DC.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador, just going back to the RNC calling for the party to unify around Trump, which happened, by the way, during the New Hampshire primary before the polls had even closed. Do you think the RNC has been an honest broker in this case?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I mean, clearly not. If you're going to go and basically tell the American people that you're going to go and decide who the nominee is after only two states have voted, I mean, 48 states out there, this is a democracy. The American people want to have their say in who is going to be their nominee. We need to give them that. I mean, you can't do that based on just two states. And not only that. It's 1,215 delegates to reach the nomination. Donald Trump has 32. I have 17. So, let's let this play out. Let's do what we need to. I mean, we saw South Carolinians. We had 1,500 people last night in Greenville County. And I think that Americans want to be able to make this decision themselves. I don't think this is the place of the RNC to do it. I think that Trump overstepped when he pushed them to do it, and I think that's why he's had to back down. And that was the right thing to do, was to back down.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And – and just, do you have actual knowledge and awareness that he pushed the RNC to do that and then pulled back?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I mean, we know exactly the people that pushed it are his people. And I know that during the debates – I mean, he was pushing Ronna McDaniel to stop the debates. He was calling her every other day. He's been pushing them to pay for his lawsuits and all of these other things. But at the end of the day, this is not about the RNC. This is about the American people. This is not about, you know, a political party deciding who they want to be the nominee. You know, when I ran for governor, there were five candidates. I was far from the nominee. I was the one – you know, I ran against the lieutenant governor, an attorney general, a congressman, and a state senator. They did the same thing to me then. I won then. I'm going to win now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about your path forward. As you know, Trump has a double-digit lead in the polls. He's secured the endorsement of a lot of the top officials in your state. Do you need to win South Carolina, your home state, in order to win the nomination?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, let's first talk about the people that he's surrounded himself in South Carolina. Yes, he got the – the endorsement of the governor, but that's the same governor that I defeated when I ran for governor. Yes, he got the endorsement of the political class in South Carolina, but that's the same group that I forced to have to show their votes on the record. It's the same group that I forced to pass ethics reform where they had to disclose their income. It's the same group where I vetoed half a billion dollars of pet projects that I didn't think taxpayer dollars should go to. So, there's no surprise there that the political elite are surrounding him there. He has become – Trump has become an insider. That's what it comes down do, is he's more interested in satisfying the elected class than he is in satisfying the people. When it comes to South Carolina, look, we wanted to be strong. And I think you look, we started with 2% in Iowa. We ended up with 20%. We got to New Hampshire, we needed to do better than that, and we did. We got 43% of the vote. Now we're going into South Carolina, we need to be stronger than what we did in New Hampshire. And so, that's certainly what we need to do. But it's not just that we need to be stronger, Kristen. Trump needs to be stronger. He's not getting the independent vote. He's not getting a segment of the Republicans. And so, he's got some work to do, as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me just make sure we get an answer, though, Ambassador Haley, because this is your home state. You were governor in the state of South Carolina. Do you need to win your home state in order to stay in this race? Is it do or die?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think I need to do better than I did in New Hampshire. So, this is a building situation. It's not about which state –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you need to win, Ambassador?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– you get and which state you don’t –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you need to actually win?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think I need to –
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hear you saying you need to do better, but don't – don’t you need to win your home state to show that you can win a state – win your home state, and really put some delegates on the map for yourself?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, we've got 17 delegates. He's got 32. I'd say that's pretty good to start. What I do think I need to do is I need to show that I'm building momentum. I need to show that I'm stronger in South Carolina than New Hampshire. Does that have to be a win? I don't think that necessarily has to be a win. But it certainly has to be better than what I did in New Hampshire, and it certainly has to be close. And so, that's what we're focusing on. If we win, great. If not, we've got to show that we're continuing to narrow that margin along the way –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, I hear you –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– to give people in Super Tuesday states a reason to know that they can continue to see and have us fight on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, I hear you saying you are in this regardless of the results in South Carolina through Super Tuesday, it sounds like. Here's how the Wall Street Journal editorial board is thinking about your campaign. They write, "If she can remain competitive, there's an argument for Ms. Haley to stay in the race through the July convention. Mr. Trump faces a treacherous legal road, and one of the cases against him could go to trial. If he's convicted of a felony, 42% of voters in New Hampshire and nearly a third of Iowa's GOP caucus-goers said Mr. Trump would be unfit for the presidency." Are you staying in this race in case Donald Trump is convicted of a crime, ambassador?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I've never stayed in this race because of court cases. You know, really, I don't know what all the court cases are. I haven't paid attention to what he's won, what he's lost, what he's fighting for, any of that. What I know is, you know, the first one came down, and he spent a lot of time ranting about how he lost that court case. But the reality is every time he's talking about defending himself in court, he's not talking about getting our economy back on track. He's not talking about closing the border. He's not talking about how we're going to get our kids reading again and getting us focused again. He's not talking about law and order. That's the problem is – he's not talking about what the American people want. Kristen, look at what happened just in the 48 hours after the election. Here he went on a – he was totally unhinged, went on a rampage election night talking about revenge. Then, the next day, he goes and says, “Anybody who supports me is not going to be allowed to be part of MAGA.” Well, that means those people that voted for me in Iowa and New Hampshire and those people who donated to me, really, you're going to go and say they're not in your club? You're supposed to be president representing everyone. Then, he goes and pushes the Republican Party to make him the nominee? I mean, look, he's insecure. He's threatened. He sees what's happening, and he knows these court cases are going to take him further and further away from the campaign trail.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
And that's what he's worried about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you bring up the court cases. I want to get to them. But just, yes or no, are you in this race through the convention, beyond Super Tuesday? Yes or no?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
As long as I keep growing per state, I am in this race. I have every –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Through the convention?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– intention of going to Super Tuesday, through Super Tuesday. We're going to keep on going and see where this gets us. That's what we know we're going to do right now. I take it one state at a time. I don't think too far ahead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's look about –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I'm not going anywhere.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let's talk about the court cases. On Friday, a jury ordered Donald Trump to pay writer E. Jean Carroll $83 million in damages for defamation. As you know, this was a year after a different jury found him liable for sexual abuse. You have said and you repeated here, "Maybe it's fair, maybe it's not." But let me just ask you, on the substance of the jury's ruling, should that be disqualifying to be president?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think the American people decide who should be disqualifying. I've always thought – it's the same thing with the RNC picking the nominee. We don't need to take over anything that the American people have the right to do. I think that – I have always said I think Donald Trump has the right to be on the ballot. I've always said I trust the American people. They know how to make good decisions. And so, I think that they're going to see this for what it is. They see that he's completely distracted. They see that he's going on these rants about how he's the victim. And I think that's exactly what we don't need a strong leader to be. And so, you know, these court cases are going to keep happening one by one. We're going to keep seeing him in a courtroom, and we're going to see him come out and do a press conference. That's not what you want a president to be. But more than that, that's not what we want Russia to see. That's not what we want China to see. And that's not what we want Iran to see.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And – and what is unique about this case is that the jury has now ruled. They have found him liable of sexual abuse. Do you not trust the jury and their findings, ambassador?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I absolutely trust the jury. And I think that they made their decision based on the evidence. I just don't think that should take him off the ballot. I think the American people will take him off the ballot. I think that's the best way to go forward, is not let him play the victim. Let him play the loser. That's what we want him to do at the end of the day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to be clear, do you think it's disqualifying, ambassador?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I don't think he should be taken off the ballot. I think the American people will decide if he's disqualifying or not. We don't do that, Kristen, in America. Anybody that wants to run can run. And I think that's really important. We have seen a lot of people try and infringe on our freedoms and our democracy. We can never let that happen. I don't want a political party deciding who's right and wrong. I don't want, you know, any judges who decide who deserves to be on the ballot and who doesn't. I want the American people to decide it. The heartbeat of America is our democracy. Let's let the American people decide who they want to lead this country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador, just one more time before we move on and we are going to move on to another topic, but you have said his advanced age makes him unfit. You have just now called him unhinged. Why give him a pass on this issue, where a jury has found him liable for sexual abuse?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I'm not giving him a pass on anything. I mean, I have said – you know, he went on for – for three or four minutes talking about how I didn't secure the Capitol on January 6th. I mean, clearly, he was confused, thinking that I was Nancy Pelosi. But, look, that's exactly why we don't need two people in their 80s running for president. We need someone who can serve a strong eight years to get our country back on track. You can't do that with him. And I think it's not being disrespectful. It's the fact that when you're 80, you are declining. That's just a fact. And so, look, there are multiple things that I think are the reason he should not be president. That's the whole reason I'm running. I do think that he is in decline, and I think that he needs to know to step away. I do think that he surrounds himself in chaos, and we can't be a country in disarray, and have a world on fire and be in chaos. I do think that these court cases are distracting not just to the American people but to him himself, which is keeping him from talking about what really matters. That's exactly why I don't think he should be president.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador, you bring up his attacks. I want to ask you about his attacks against you. He has mocked your birth name. He has suggested you're not eligible to be president because your parents weren't born here. Of course, you are eligible. You were born here. But I'm curious just big picture: what do you make of him bringing back this birther playbook against you? Do you think it will work in South Carolina and win over voters there?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I mean, honestly, Kristen, I laugh every time I see one of his tweets, every time I see him throw a temper tantrum, because I know Donald Trump very well. When he feels insecure, he starts to rail. He starts to rant. He starts to flail his arms, and he starts to get upset. When he gets – feels threatened, he starts to throw all kinds of things out there. I would always tell him he was his own worst enemy. He's proving that right now. He proved it in the fact that he continues to be chaotic. Those things don't hurt my feelings. This is not personal for me. What is personal for me is getting America back on track.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Would you go so far as to call those attacks racist, ambassador?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think that's for everybody else to decide. I think that they – you know, the fact that he continues to go down these paths of saying things, you know, is this who we want as a president? Is this who we want our kids to see? I don't think so. And, look, he's just going to become more unhinged, Kristen. Hold on. It's going to get worse, because that's what he does when he feels like he's not in control.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Ambassador Haley, let's pause our conversation here for just a moment. When we come back, Republicans are backing away from a border policy deal that would unlock funding for Ukraine and Israel. Is it all just campaign politics? We continue our conversation right after this quick break.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Ambassador Nikki Haley is still with us. Ambassador, thank you for staying with us. I do want to ask you about this border deal. There have been talks for weeks now, a group of senators working on this deal. They seem to be close to the finish line, but now Donald Trump is trying to torpedo any deal. He wrote this weekend, quote, "A bad border deal is far worse than no border deal." What is your message right now to Republicans on Capitol Hill? Should they get this deal done?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
My message to Republicans is: Do not leave D.C. until you finish the job. We have waited for so long for Congress to do something about the border. First, Joe Biden should be securing the border. This is a national security threat. The idea that he is actually suing Governor Abbott for trying to protect the people of Texas is wrong. America's acting like it's September 10th, and we better remember what September 12th felt like, because it only takes one person to cause a 9/11 moment. The second thing is Republicans and Democrats need to get into a room. They don't need to leave until they figure this out, because the American people are not safe at this point. And Donald Trump, the last thing he needs to do is tell them to wait to pass a border deal until the election. We can't wait one more day. But they do need to get this right. I don't know exactly the details in the bill, but one of the things I saw is that they didn't have the “Remain in Mexico” policy. You have to have the “Remain in Mexico” policy because people don't even need to set foot on U.S. soil. That's the first place we need to start.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador Haley, the Biden administration has said they're taking action actually against Governor Abbott because they see some of his policies as inhumane. But let me ask you, big picture: We heard President Biden say he's prepared to shut down the border if this deal passes. If you were president, if you were in the White House right now – and I know that you are saying Republicans should get a deal, but you're also saying you don't see everything in it you want – would you sign this bill? Would you sign this into law?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, I haven't seen the details of the bill so I can't comment on whether I would sign it. What I can tell you is I've seen things that are not in it that should be in it. And let's keep in mind I appreciate that President Biden is saying he wants to be humane in this process. But look, I dealt with the border when I was in the United Nations. While President Trump was dealing with it in D.C., I was on the ground in Honduras and Guatemala. What those people go through in that trek to America is horrific. And it's dangerous and it's unsafe. We need to make sure they never even think there's an opening for them. They shouldn't even make that trek in the first place. And what's happened is they see all their family members coming over. They see all their friends coming over. President Biden gave half a million Venezuelans temporary protective status, which is social security numbers and driver's licenses. The first thing they do – I saw this at the U.N. – they pick up the phone and call their relatives and say, "Come on over." We need to stop what's happening at the border–
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Ambassador –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
We need to get this done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– when you hear President Biden say he's prepared to shut down the border, what say you about that? You agree with that assessment?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I say to President Biden, "Prove it. Get into a room and get this done and prove it because the arm people are waiting." I put this on Republicans and Democrats. I'm not picking favorites in this. I'm telling you, they have all not done a good job from the very beginning, and it is time that we get this country safe again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about what's happening in the Middle East. There are reports the U.S. is getting closer to negotiating a deal that would effectively mean Israel would suspend its military operations in Gaza for about two months in exchange for a release of the remaining hostages. The CIA director is in Paris negotiating these talks right now. If you were president, if you were in the White House right now, is this the type of deal you would get behind? Would you be supporting this and urging Israel to accept this compromise?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
We want to do everything we can to get the hostages home, but I also know what this means. This means that during those two months, Hamas is going to refuel. They're going to rebuild their ammunition. They're going to re-plan. They're going to plan all of the things that they're going to do. They have said they're going to do another attack, and Israel has to keep themselves safe. So this is a fine line that we need to see them walk. First of all, we need to make sure Israel has whatever they need when they need it. We need to make sure that we eliminate Hamas and never take our eye off the target –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you think –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– because they have said they’re going to do this again –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– this is a bad deal –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– and we need to –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– Ambassador, do you think this is a bad deal –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– get the hostages home.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you think it's a bad deal to pause the fighting for two months?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I think if Israel is willing to pause, then we should. If Israel is not willing to pause, then we shouldn't. They are driving this train. When they saw so many people die on October 7th and they hear Hamas saying they're going to do this again – Kristen, when I was at the United Nations, I gave a speech five years ago. And it told the world that there were maps. These maps were held by Hamas. And it showed that if they could break through the barrier, this is how they were going to kill as many Jewish people as fast as they could. That happened. I know there would be no Hamas without Iran. I know that they want to eliminate Israel. We've got to find a way to protect Israelis and get those hostages home. This may work. We have to see. But what we also have to do is not take our eyes off of Hamas, because they're going to use this time to kill more people and do more things to build up their military.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador, I want to ask you about something that happened at your home in South Carolina last month. We're just learning about it right now. Authorities responded to a swatting call. Just for our audience, that's when a fake emergency call is called in, creating the possibility of a really dangerous situation. You were not home at the time. But what was your reaction? What are the implications of this happening, Ambassador?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, Kristen, I was not home, but Michael and I take care of my parents. They are 87 and 90, and we take care of them. And they were at home and with their caregiver. And so I will tell you that the last thing you want is to see multiple law enforcement officials with guns drawn pointing at my parents and thinking that something happened. It is an awful situation. It put the law enforcement officers in danger. It put my family in danger. And, you know, it was not a safe situation. And that goes to show the chaos that's surrounding our country right now and the fact that these things are happening. And so, look, I'm not the only one that's happened to. It wasn't the first time. I think we've had it happen twice. But I will tell you this, that I think that what's really important is we have lived in a country of chaos for quite a while now. It is time that we remember what normal felt like. It is time that we remember what healing feels like. It is time that we remember what it's like not to have division, not to have hate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador –
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
We are Americans, and we need to remember how blessed we are.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just very quickly, we have two more topics I want to get to. How concerned are you about political violence right now overall, given what happened?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I mean, I think – look, I feel it. We've been to town halls, 150-something town halls. There are things that have happened. I've had threats made. It's what happens when you run for president. I can handle that. That is not the problem. What I don't want is for my kids to live like this. That's the reason I'm doing this. Is to have this division and not – my husband is deployed right now, sacrificing for America with his military brothers and sisters. They are doing that because they love this country, because they still believe in this amazing experiment that is America. We have to go back to remember what it's like to be Americans first. That's the biggest thing that's heartbreaking for me is we're better than this. Our country is better than this. And the rest of the world is looking at us wondering what happened. We've got to right this ship. We've got to get it back. And I know we can do it. America has an amazing ability to self-correct. Sometimes we have to hit rock bottom to know where up is. We're there. We need to start looking up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Ambassador Haley, let me just ask you, looking forward, if you do fall short, if you don't get the nomination, you have said before that being on a ticket with Donald Trump is, quote, “Off the table.” Let me just ask you to put a fine point on it. Have you completely ruled out being Donald Trump's running mate?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I have said, "I don't want to be anyone's vice president." I don't know how more clear I can be, anyone's vice president, period –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you've ruled it out, Ambassador?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I'm running –
KRISTEN WELKER:
You've ruled it out?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
– for president. I mean, I think that's what I'm saying. If I say, "I don't want to be anyone's vice president," I think that's pretty clear. What I'm telling you is I am going to run, and I am running to win. And I think the American people deserve better. And I think this is a time where the American people need a lot of courage. We have seen every general election poll. Trump does not beat Biden in a general election. We have seen that. I defeat Biden by double digits. When you look at that, that's a mandate, Kristen, to go get the wasteful spending out of control, to secure our border with no more excuses, to get our kids reading again. That's what we need to be doing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Would you rule out endorsing him as a nominee? You have said before that you would support him. Given your stepped up language, you're calling him unhinged, would you rule out endorsing him as a nominee?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I'm not even thinking about endorsements, Kristen. I know that y'all want to talk about what happens if. I'm focused on defeating Donald Trump, period. That's it. I don't think past that. I'm not thinking past South Carolina or Super Tuesday. What I want to do is go and save this country. We have a country to save. I'm determined to do it. Y'all can think forward. I'm focused on the sweet people of South Carolina and making sure that we get their voices heard. And we're going to work this state as hard and as fast as we ever have.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Ambassador Nikki Haley, thank you so much. Good luck out on the campaign trail. Stay safe. We really appreciate your joining us. When we come back, Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Biden's campaign rallies this week were interrupted more than a dozen times by protesters calling for a cease-fire in Gaza, even unfurling a banner reading, quote, "Genocide Joe." Now, some of President Biden's senior aides are becoming increasingly concerned his support for Israel's war in Gaza is damaging his reelection effort with cratering support from progressives and, particularly, young voters. Joining me now is Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York. Congresswoman, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
Thank you for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we really appreciate your being here. We are going to get to the situation in the Middle East in just a moment. But I do want to ask you about the president's reelection campaign. As you know, in some of these key battleground states, he has some real vulnerabilities. Why do you think he is struggling against former President Donald Trump, someone who's been indicted four times and who's now been slapped with this $83-million civil suit?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
Well, you know, I think we can take a look at the overall landscape here. It's not just what we're talking about with President Biden, but former President Trump also has extraordinary vulnerabilities. We saw that in New Hampshire. The fact that he is a former sitting president, head of his party, virtually everyone else has dropped out and endorsed him, and still, as we just saw, Nikki Haley came – you know, she cleared about 43% in New Hampshire, bodes very not well for Donald Trump and his ability to win a general election. When it comes to President Biden, you know, I think we need to really focus and understand that young people are a very strong part of this electorate. We have a diverse coalition in the Democratic Party that has its own concerns, whether it is what's happening in Gaza or – or any other number of issues. But right now, I think November's going to be about the coalition we can put together and the policy progress we can make between now and then.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And do you think President Biden is the strongest person to take on former President Trump, given everything you've just said, congresswoman?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
I think what we have right now, what we've seen in New Hampshire, he is virtually the nominee of the party. His turnout in New Hampshire is actually not something to ignore. We saw, from a write-in campaign, remember, President Biden wasn't even on the ballot in New Hampshire, he won overwhelmingly with turnout that even exceeded Obama 2012 turnout when Obama was on the ballot. And so, there are quite a few indicators in his strength in New Hampshire. We will see what happens in South Carolina and, of course, when we get to important primaries like Michigan.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, but, just to be clear, though, do you think the president's the strongest person to take on Mr. Trump if he is the nominee? It's still an “if.”
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
Yes. And, I mean, especially when we look at this field. We have, you know, Dean Phillips and Marianne Williamson. President Biden, I think, without question, among that field, is the strongest nominee.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, you have said in the past it's not just enough for Democrats to talk about what they are running against. You want the president to be talking about what he's running for. Do you think, in this very moment, President Biden is doing a good enough job explaining to voters why they should vote for him and not just against former President Trump?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
I think we can certainly do more to be advancing our vision. And I believe that we have a strong vision that we can run on. You know I think – and – and for what it's worth, the president has said, "If you give me the House, and if you give me the Senate and reelect me to the presidency, we will codify abortion rights and the right to choose in this country. We'll codify reproductive rights." I think we can do more. I think we – I think we need to be talking more about health care. Of course, me as a progressive, I want to see the age of Medicare drop, whether it's to 50, as the president has discussed earlier, or to zero, as is my preference, to extend Medicare to all people in the United States of America. But I believe that we can be doing more. We can talk even more about the fact that public colleges and universities should be tuition free or reduced. The president has advanced student loan forgiveness just this month for people who have taken out SAVE loans under $12,000. They will see their loans wiped out. But I do believe that advancing that affirmative vision is going to be very, very important as – as well as really laying out and showing, between now and November, through our governing decisions, our governing decisions, when we have that power in the White House, what we are willing to do with it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congresswoman, to that point, has the Biden campaign reached out to you and said, "We want you to help reelect President Biden?” How do you see your role and the role of progressives in this reelection effort?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
I see my role overall as – as really trying to expand the power of movements –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have they reached out to you, congresswoman?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
– in the United States of America and people's – we’ve been in contact – we've – we’ve been in contact with the Biden administration throughout my term and throughout his term, as well. And I know that he has been in contact, you know, with many members of Congress. But, you know, I think what is most important is that, and in terms of my role, I think my role is in allegiance to people's movements across this country: in the labor movement that had extraordinary gains last year, whether it was the Teamsters, whether it was UAW's historic contract, whether it is the – the bubbling labor fights that we are seeing across the country. I think we have – and our responsibility is to make sure that those fights are protected. A climate movement that has built such extraordinary power that just this past week, the Biden administration actually announced a pause on all liquefied natural gas export facilities, additional ones, moving forward. And that is not just because of the Biden administration, and I want to be very clear about that. That is because of absolute organized and committed organizing by activists and communities that are being impacted on the ground, whether you're a unionized labor worker or whether you're a frontline climate activist. And having and ensuring that we are protecting an environment where those movements have the ability and the right to organize is what I am committed to. And that is why I am committed to ensuring that they are not stamped out with a Trump presidency.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about what's happening in the Middle East. There are details about this potential emerging deal in which Israel would stop its war campaign for about two months in exchange for all of the hostages. Given the argument by Israel, by the U.S. government, that applying pressure to Hamas is the only way to get the hostages out, do you think that Israel's strategy on the point of the hostages, has been effective?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
I do not. We have seen – we know that Hamas as an organization, it does not have any regard for human life. I think that, in Hamas' attack on October 7th, they knew what they were bringing on to – they knew the violence that they were bringing on. And we have seen that. They understood the asymmetric attack that – that Israel will put out. Israel has been indiscriminately attacking Gazans. And we have seen over 25,000 Palestinians have been killed, over 70% of whom are women and children. This – using 25,000 lives as leverage, and the idea that that is going to pressure Hamas, they are accountable to very little. But I think what is most important is saving these lives, ensuring the release of hostages, and, in my view, negotiating a ceasefire.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Some of your colleagues – and we talked about what's happened at the protests this week have called the president “Genocide Joe.” Some of your colleagues have accused the president of supporting genocide, including Rashida Tlaib. Do you agree with that word, genocide, that the president's been supporting a genocide? Or does that go too far?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
I think what we are seeing right now throughout the country is that young people are appalled at the violence and the indiscriminate loss of life. We are not just seeing 25,000 people that have died in Gaza. We are seeing the starvation of – of millions of people, the displacement of over 2 million Gazans. We have South Africa that has mounted a court in the ICJ. The ICJ ruled this week that Israel has a grave responsibility to prevent genocide.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But they're still –
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
And I think that the fact that –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– they're still determining whether it's a genocide. Do you think that term is responsible –
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
They are still determining it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– given that it's still under investigation?
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
I believe that – they're still determining it, but in the interim ruling, the fact that they said there's a responsibility to prevent it, the fact that this word is even in play, the fact that this word is even in our discourse I think demonstrates the mass inhumanity that Gazans are facing. And so, whether you are an individual that believes this is a genocide, which, by the way, in our polling, we are seeing large amounts of Americans concerned specifically with that word. So, I don't think that it is something to completely toss someone out of our public discourse for using. But I think what we are seeing here is that the Netanyahu government has lost public support and that we have a responsibility to protect the human rights and the humanity of Gazans and hostages alike in the area.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. And when we come back, a teacher from New Hampshire with a dream of being the first American civilian to go to space. Remember the Challenger tragedy 38 years later. Our Meet the Press Minute is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Thirty-eight years ago today, Americans watched in horror as the Space Shuttle Challenger tore itself apart not even two minutes after lift-off, killing all seven crew members aboard. Among them, 37-year-old Christa McAuliffe, a teacher who was to become the first civilian in space. Astronomer Carl Sagan joined this broadcast just days after the disaster, with calls growing to keep ordinary citizens away from space.
[START TAPE]
CARL SAGAN:
My sense is that the tragedy would not have been averted had Christa McAuliffe been replaced by a trained astronaut. The key question is: Do those who go up in space understand what the risks are? And I think it is important to be able to communicate what space flight and space exploration is about to the public that's footing the bill. And for that reason I think it is a good idea to send ordinary citizens up, and journalists, and writers, and filmmakers but under the conditions I mentioned.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, how long will Nikki Haley keep up the fight? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Washington managing editor Carol Lee; Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher; and Matt Gorman, former senior communications advisor for Tim Scott for America. Thanks to all of you for being here. Matt, I have to start with you. You heard Nikki Haley say she doesn't have to win South Carolina. She just has to do better than she did in New Hampshire. What do you make of that and her path?
MATT GORMAN:
I mean, it's like that '80s wrestler slogan. “You want to be the man, you've got to beat the man.” She has to start winning somewhere. She got the one-on-one race she's wanted for a while. She's right now about 20 points down in South Carolina. She has four weeks to go. But if we're looking at it right now 10 days, 20 days, she's still down 20 points, that's a very different conversation. Things have to move in her direction.
CORNELL BELCHER:
And I think when you look – when you get inside the internals of the number, New Hampshire gave her probably the best chance of actually knocking him off because of the number of Independents, right? It’'s a large swath of Independent voters, not so many Republican primary voters. She is not winning enough hard-core Conservative primary voters to see a pathway forward here. Even in the states going into Super Tuesday that are open primaries, she's not nearly winning enough Independents and enough core Republican voters to see a pathway to victory.
MATT GORMAN:
Six hundred thousand new voters in the state since she left the governor's mansion, a lot of them from the north, higher-income college grads, prime for maybe pick off.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. It – we will watch it closely because it's her home state, and the dynamics there, as you say, are just so fascinating. Carol Lee, it was so fascinating that President Biden basically said, "Okay, primary's over," on the night of the New Hampshire primary. You have this new exclusive reporting on some of the strategy and also this first-of-its-kind fundraiser.
CAROL LEE:
That's right. The Biden campaign is trying to organize a fundraiser with President Biden, former President Obama, and former President Clinton, the three of them headlining a fundraiser. They hope it raises a ton of money. This – no date's been set, but it's likely to happen in the spring, March or April.They want to raise a lot of money with that but also energize Democrats who have not shown a lot of enthusiasm for the Biden ticket in 2024. And it's just part of this strategy of this all-hands-on-deck approach that we've seen from Democratic Party leaders. And one Biden advisor said, "Look, the fact that they're doing this this early in the year really underscores that it is, you know, everybody trying to get on board and get Biden over the finish line."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Cornell, what do you make of that, of Carol's reporting and just some of the warning signs inside Democratic circles? You had President Biden in South Carolina overnight with Congressman Clyburn, trying to make sure that voters of color, Black voters, turn out for him in the same numbers that they did in 2020.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, I make it's like ever couple years we have, like, you know, political amnesia, because I remember being in the same space in 2012 when – when Democrats were not so energized and young people were like, "We didn't get the change that we wanted." So that's why – that’s why you build campaigns, right? So what you're going to see over the next couple of months is Biden and the VP out there telling their stories and – and Obama and Clinton out there telling their stories. It is all hands on deck to tell – to tell this story because I think also they do have a good story to tell, even to these young people. When you look at the environmental issues, when you – that they're so keen on, he's done more than any president in history around these environmental issues. They have a story to tell. They've just got to get their message out.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Matt, all of this is going on against the backdrop of these border talks. Donald Trump is basically saying to Republicans, "Don't get a deal." Mitch McConnell in a private meeting said, "We don't want to undermine him." Now, publicly McConnell walked it back. But moderate Republicans are saying, "This is our best possibility of getting a deal in decades with Democrats. Let's do it now."
MATT GORMAN:
Yeah. It reminds me of The Sixth Sense. It's been dead a month. No one noticed it yet. With a – with a three-vote margin in the House you're not going to get an immigration deal done. The White House and the Senate are acting like they're the only people involved in this. They're not. But that being said, Joe Biden can do executive orders on his own. “Remain in Mexico,” re-initiate the emergency at the border. He's acting as if he's hopeless here. He's absolutely not.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Let's not forget the politics of this, right? They're killing this because of politics. And I've seen this happen before: 2007 Bush wanted to do immigration. They – they attacked it as amnesty for – for illegals. Obama thought he had a deal with Boehner. He took it back to the House, and the Republicans killed it again for politics. And right now, don't take my word, take Senator Tom Tillis – not exactly a Liberal, who says, "What the Republicans are doing on this may be immoral, because they're killing it because the president thinks it’s good – President Trump thinks it's good for his politics."
MATT GORMAN:
Obama also had 60 votes first year he's in office. Didn't get it done either.
CORNELL BELCHER:
He had a little bit of economic crisis to deal with.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to remind folks, the backdrop to all of this, by the way, Carol, is to get a deal on the border so that there's more funding for Ukraine and Israel. And that situation is also something that's looming large over the Biden administration. And I know you have new reporting on Israel as well.
CAROL LEE:
Yeah. Look, the president is in a bind. He's under a lot of pressure within his own party to do more to get Israel to scale things back in its assault on the Gaza Strip. We're reporting this morning that one of the things the administration is doing is having discussions about how to leverage some of Israel's requests for weaponry, ammunition, things like that, to incentivize them to do what the president has privately been urging them to do. And, look, no decisions have been made on this, but it's significant that these discussions are happening, because it would move the president from just the rhetoric and these behind-the-scenes pushing to actually potentially taking some sort of action, which is what Democrats, members of his party, have been calling for.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And there's no doubt if they got this deal to release the hostages that would be politically significant. Thank you all. We'll have you back. Appreciate it. That's all for today. Thank you so much for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.